At 03:29:17 on 05.09.10, SittinOnGo wrote:
My newest horse absolutely refuses to put his head down and accept rein pressure. I've worked with horses off the track for just over eleven years now and none of them have been this defiant in accepting my hand. He isn't hot at all and you even have to kick a few times to get the canter, but even when you go around on the bit, his head is in the air. I've gotten him to the point where he will "stretch" aka push his nose towards the ground in a sort of long and low type position, but only for a few seconds and after once or twice he won't do it again. I don't like to fight him for his head seeing as I believe this is counter productive, but we aren't getting anywhere. I ride in either a copper roller comfort snaffle or an eggbut french link Anywho, I'd just appreciate hearing some ideas and perhaps maybe if anyone has had a similar problem, what they did to fix it...

At 21:37:05 on 05.09.10, JessAndGrenville123 wrote:
Grenville hates bit pressure, he is off track very calm and cool headed but put pressure on the bit his head is up with a hollow back. He has taught me you shouldn't fiddle with a horses head (eventually i ditched my bridle when i was schooling) i used my seat and legs to get him rounded off and loose. I put my calves firmly against his sides and his head drops nicely, i sit deep and keep the pressure to keep him going in a continuous outline but although at first he couldn't do it very long from lack of muscle he can now carry himself 'propperly' for 2 hours. Think about how you would react f someone had a metal bar in your mouth pulling down but when you released this pressure and tried your muscles ached. This is how you horse will feel. I believe every horse has different ideas on how he likes to be treated. Some horses will not do as you say until you ask the way they would like you too so i would say try using your seat and legs to control your horse and see if you can get some good results. Hope this helps :) x

At 22:33:46 on 05.09.10, ToriSilverson wrote:
you could try working with side reins, he may not have the muscle to hold himself. work with them loosely and for a short period of time at first and build up the time. you could even try having someone else lunge you on him with the side reins to help him get the idea of what you want.

At 22:11:54 on 07.09.10, JessAndGrenville123 wrote:
Sorry i disagree with side reins as it controls the head but gives no control over the legs so he will be in a false outline, head and neck rounded but with legs strung out behind him. I am a big fan of teaching self carriage and not a forced outline. I really think you fiddle with a horses head too much the horse concentrates so hard on his head carriage he forgets about the rest of his body...

At 11:29:50 on 04.04.12, LibertyHooves wrote:
You have to be super careful with an outline. Some horses conformation does not actually allow for the outline to ever be correct and true and others may actually have physical issues such as neck, back teeth problems that do not allow him to be able to do this comfortably. I disagree with any sort of 'Aid' to get a horse to work in a round outline as when the gadgets are removed the horse is unable to carry himself correctly without help and it does not improve the rest of the bodies ability to follow suit. You need to work on topline and muscle build up and first teach him to stretch long and low before he can collect. Using carrot stretches Left right, up, down on a twice daily basis should be the start of suppling up the horses body in order for him to carry himself properly, as well as pole work. Avoid fiddling way too many riders I see these days sawing their horses mouth off thinking that if the horses head is down it must be an outline but forget an outline is not just the head carriage, it should improve the entire body and his way of moving. A horse can collect himself naturally and it is something that comes naturally in the wild at war and at play it does not need to be taught, it just needs to be made so that the horse has the capability, correct muscle build up and flexibility to be able to carry out the task. Which means riders should stop grabbing, and should start giving And remember people. A outline is a flex in the poll NOT a bend in the neck. Below navara demonstrates her head carriage. Always very correct and the topline correct too (a little bit over weight, but this was last summer) she has been taught self carriage through play, stretches, and pole work. I have actually clicker trained correct posture ^^ She carries herself beautifully when ridden also...

At 15:54:42 on 04.04.12, FancyTheMustang wrote:
Well, my horse,Fancy, was defiant of using any bit on her and so what did is I started using a hackamore ( bitless bridle) on her. What the hackamore does to control a horse is it put s presure on the side of the outh in what ever direction you want the horse to go and puts pressure on both sides of the mouth when you want them to stop. Also along with that I thought her to be controlled with knee pressure at her sides. (picture: Me using a hackamore on Fancy)

At 17:28:25 on 04.04.12, noneotherthan01 wrote:
On my mare, who absolutely hated bit pressure, I just went up in bits. got her and had her in a western shank, and she barely listened. when i switched her to english, had her in a snaffle, no listening at all... even with several months of training. moved that up to a weymouth, but the curb chain wasn't tight enough, to a kimberwicke, back to the weymouth, tightening the curb chain, i got results after that... maybe he's just ready for a higher level bit?

At 12:05:14 on 10.04.12, LibertyHooves wrote:
The submission and 'outline' you get from using curbs, pelhams, kimblewicks etc are false outlines...caused by pressure and pain rather than through careful build up and self carriage. A shortcut if you will. I would rather my horse was able to work in an outline in a rope halter through correct muscle build up, training and riding rather than simply because the horse is being force into position through poll pressure and hard hands on a hard bit.