At 15:28:35 on 18.06.10, plodalong wrote:
I just booked my ticket for the parelli savvy seminar.(had to join the savvy club to get it.)at stoneleigh, just wondered if anyone else is going and wants a meet up?

At 12:40:57 on 11.07.10, Flicka wrote:
Hi plodalong-hope you had a good time. Did you watch Pat Parelli with one of the Whitaker's horses that wouldn't have a bridle on? I was told that they tied it's leg up and then it would! Is this true and what did you think? Also can you tell us a bit more about the event?

At 22:21:07 on 11.07.10, plodalong wrote:
Robert Whittacker purchased this horse for two hundred thousand pounds, and has only had the stallion for a few weeks. the horse would not permit anyone to put on a bridle and was becoming dangerous by using his head and neck like a sledge hammer against anyone attempting to bridle him.Pat used the method he thought was appropriate to convince the horse that Pat was not going to harm him. Pat tied a leg up and used a gum twich in an attempt to rid the horse of some adrenaline and to convince the horse that Pat was going to be the Alpha in this relationship. i firmly believe that Pat did everything for the horse. not against or to him,People were walking out and some commented on why doesnt Pat stop when he see's people walking out? the answer is simple. Pat was doing what he was doing for the horse, not for the audience.I have seen this method used in the past by Clinton Anderson and Dave stewart.there was no cruelty involved. Robert Whittaker allowed Pat to play with the stallion the following day and there is now a video clip on Parelli tube showing the horse agreeing to have a bridle put on his head with no protest. shows once again that normal methods fail and owners dont know what to do next they turn to Pnh for help.a parelli professional will do some further work with the horse (who is called Catwalk)over the next couple of weeks. Time will tell how well the methods worked when we see Robert competing Catwalk.If some people thought this was a cruel thing to do for this horse maybe they should ask the question.What the hell has been done to him in the past to make him so afraid of the bridle.? was it any crueler than rollkur,or harsh bits?How long had this horse tolerated the fear? how had anyone managed to get a bridle on him in the past ,before Robert got him? what would happen to him if Pat hadn't helped to alleviate that fear. I know that the naysayers are going to have a picnic with this but im sure that those who understand what Pat did will defend him for the sake of future horses that need the help of good horsemen such as Pat Parelli.Catwalk was examined by a vet after the seminar and found to be ok.Pat used this method in full view of the public and had nothing to hide, exteem behaviour requires extreem methods to help the horse to overcome his fear of bridles and to put his trust in humans again.

At 08:13:00 on 12.07.10, Flicka wrote:
I found the video. It says 'passive persistence in horse training pays off" but what is passive about tying a horses leg up and why didn't they show it in the video? You don't have to be into Parelli to use this technique-it's an old horseman trick from this country and it was suggested to me years ago as was putting the horse on the ground and covering its head. It's probably an old cowboy trick too for subduing a horse. I don't particularly like the argument that extreme behaviour requires extreme methods as this leaves horses that have been misunderstood open to harsh treatment. Did he try simple de-sensitisation to begin with? And what is a gum twitch? The trouble is the slower approach often isn't what is required for a show environment where quick results are needed. I was asked to work with a young rescue stallion who wouldn't let anyone touch him or put a headcollar on and it took me about three one hour sessions to change his behaviour. Don't get me wrong I'm not in any way suggesting I'm better than Pat Parelli but of course what I did would be much more boring to watch. But I think it should be our aim to always work in a much subtler way with horses.

At 08:53:28 on 12.07.10, kibby wrote:
it worked, and the horse is definitely not scared or worried in the sessions on saturday. but i do agree with flicka, you might have been able to get the same results in a more subtle way..

At 14:08:38 on 12.07.10, plodalong wrote:
Whatever Pat had done he would (according to some)be going to hell in a hackamore. Had he played with the savvy team and balls and pedastals then he would have been accused of training circus horses,because he openly used old cowboy methods he is cruel.had he done this on savvy sunday he would have been preaching to the converted and accused of doing it in a closed place with biased audience.HE DID WHAT HE THOUGHT WAS BEST FOR THE HORSE.Robert whittaker could have called a halt at any point.his groom could have called a halt to the proceedings but they didnt.R obert is happy with the results and parelli professionals will work with Robert,his groom and Catwalk over the coming weeks .If the stallions owner is content and the horse is happy then in my opinion Pat did a good job.Natural doesnt mean soft or always pretty.

At 14:15:53 on 12.07.10, kibby wrote:
i don't disagree with the tying the leg.. i just have a thing against twitches i will do anything to no have to use them.. and as i said it worked, but it is a shame he had to use a twitch..

At 17:22:20 on 12.07.10, plodalong wrote:
ive seen horses be twiched when the farrier comes. Pat needed to stay safe and needed to keep the horse safe.this horse needed to recognise that the wrong thing would be hard and the right thing would be easy.This horse had learned to fight hard to not have a bridle on and had done so for seven years.if you think what Pat parelli did was so wrong how do you think that poor horse was bridled previously just to compete and win money. i dread to think what methods were used.The twich was used to help the horse to calm .you can go to any show and see things that are far worse and done with no attitude of justice.and not done for the horse but for a ribbon.Catwalk was not hurt by these old methods. and both Pat and Catwalk come out of this alive and well. when he is jumping and winning competitions for Robert whittaker in the future just remember this horse no longer suffers the fear of being bridled.

At 21:53:47 on 12.07.10, NMH wrote:
A horse who has learned to swing his head & neck around as a weapon when being bridled (a) has been badly maltreated & (b) is a very major danger to humans. He has probably learned it by hurting someone, or even hurting successive people- if you're an abused horse, when you actually injure someone in this way, lo & behold, they stop trying to bridle you!! Thus does bad handling teach the wrong things, for "reward" (of cessation of hassle for the horse) can inadvertently come by the horse accidentally seriously hurting its handler. Then only, as plod says, by making the wrong thing difficult & the right thing easy, can a weak human gain the advantage without risk to self (risk to humans is quite unjustified- I hope you don't regularly take these on Flicka! though a horse that has learned to eliminate what it sees as its torment by behaviour that culminates in injuring its handler is an order of magnitude more dangerous than a simply terrified one). In this case quickly & (to the horse) clearly a permanent change in its behaviour was made. I have previously heard of a horse that had had such pain inflicted via bitting that it had learned that to knock out its handler by swinging its head round wildly until that happened was the only thing that would prevent the bit torture. That is SERIOUSLY dangerous, because of a horse's superior strength/height/agility. The subsequent Parelli session videos are wonderful - at last that horse can have a gentle & rewarding relationship with humans.

At 22:21:41 on 12.07.10, Em28 wrote:
I'm not too sure what to think of this. For people to walk out in disgust, a horse to try and escape mid process and enduring being tied up, hobbled and mouth twitched, as well as going over a couple of times. I find it a bit too much in the name of a demonstration, the Friday night session lasted 3 hours, yet the official video was less than 10 seconds before going to the Saturday session. By nature horses will give in/give up, hence for many years these methods were the main methods used to ''break the horse in'', by breaking the horses spirit. What I find to be hypocritical is that these are not natural methods. Also Pat Parelli seems to be contradicting his beliefs about training, 'take the time it takes'???. Have to say I agree with Flicka and think maybe the horse should have been able to have a few sessions without hobbles etc. I can't help but think Monty Roberts natural horse training methods never involve such things. Don't get me wrong horses must be treated as individuals and Stallions can be very dangerous, but I would have felt horrified seeing a powerful £200,000 Stallion being degraded to being tied down for a show. Also, why did the stallion not want the bridle on? Was it medical was it due to pain in his ears/mouth? Was it from ill handling? I would have thought putting a gumline or even chains in his mouth, when he blatantly has an aversion to the bridle being put on his head may mean he also would hate having a bit put in in future? There's always more than one way to train an animal........