At 16:16:09 on 14.03.10, JessAndGrenville123 wrote:
Hyperflexion is wrong but a outline is what we aim for, how can we tell the difference in the saddle without a sideview? The poll should be the highest point look at this and pay attention. This horse in the picture is on the bit although many would say he isn't and would ask for more flexion. Any more flex than this is rollkur.

At 16:18:02 on 14.03.10, JessAndGrenville123 wrote:
This horse is ridden in hyperflexion and this is how most people ride thinking it is not rollkur as the horses head isn't touching it's chest, well it is just as harmful. The poll is no longer the highest point.

At 16:19:12 on 14.03.10, JessAndGrenville123 wrote:
This horse is also in a correct outline see the fine line and difference?

At 16:22:02 on 14.03.10, JessAndGrenville123 wrote:
extreme rollkur, this is pretty much as bad as it gets. Be careful not to ride your horse even slightly behind the vertical it can have serious consequences.

At 17:35:12 on 14.03.10, BlkHrsRdr wrote:
When riding and the horse goes behind the vertical it can be a challenge to feel if the rider is not used to the feel of a solid connection, or contact, with the horse's mouth. Keeping in mind that one can have a solid connection on a very soft and light feel of the mouth, so when the nose dips behind the vertical even slightly this can be difficult to feel. Normally when this happens, meaning when the horse does this as normal travel, the horse is not moving forward enough to engage the back nicely. As a rider, if you can feel a drop in the connection and see a bit more bend at the neck behind the poll, simply asking the horse to move more forward or become more active in the hocks will push that nose out again. A horse that is fully engaged, on the aids (or on the bit as some would call it) and active behind will never go behind the vertical unless they try to avoid the rider's hands. ;)

At 17:42:08 on 14.03.10, BlkHrsRdr wrote:
The "outline" or "frame" should not be the aim, actually, imho. The aim should be a horse that is working well, engaged in his back and "on the aids". When you have this, you have the 'outline', but when on tries to create an 'outline' usually they resort to hands to position the neck and head, and this is completely incorrect. We do want the poll to be the highest point at all times, whether the horse is in extension or collection. The poll is directly connected to the hocks!! (a pearl of wisdom there) Unless the hocks are quite active, meaning moving up and down, bending nicely, the poll will not be the highest point. Getting the hocks active enough for the horse to "set himself" is the key, and is the only time the horse is fully 'on the aids' and ready to do whatever is asked easily and effortlessly. This is the ideal most dressage riders dream of and hardly ever truly achieve, yet it's actually quite easy once the horse has learned that moving engaged through the back is easier and feels better. Teaching them just takes time and persistence, constantly asking for more forward and more forward until the horse settles and moves in that nice pace neither rushing nor slowing and is active behind, that's when the real magic begins to happen.

At 20:08:39 on 14.03.10, Dusty03 wrote:
This is a great topic! I have been fighting this issue with my mare since I started her undersaddle. The first time she had a bit in her mouth she was giving and dropping behind the vertical at any touch on the rein. She used to ride in a severe nose to chest position with my reins droopy. She would be flying around the arena tripping over her feet but her face was still in her chest. Finally 6 months later she is starting to reach for the bit on occasion. I think it is her breed every saddlebred I have seen going dressage goes behind the bit quite a bit. My horses I don't want them at all behind the bit I want them on the bit, and if anything a little in front of the vertical. When I give them more rein I want them to reach for the contact. A horse who does not reach for contact is not truly on the bit. I have seen horses showing 1st and 2nd levels who were just held in a frame. They still scored decently. When I rode them I realized they were just holding the frame they were not coming through. I'm not the rider I was 10 years ago, I don't have my core strength anymore.

At 22:06:46 on 14.03.10, JessAndGrenville123 wrote:
Thanks for the comments and to Dusty03 about your core strength, i bet you still have it, have a lesson about it i did and my instructor made me sit with my back stretched focused with my hands above the whithers in line with my stomach and my horses mouth and pulled on the reins as hard as she could away from my hands and i had to use the new position to keep the reins from being snatched away and it was so weird to see how much of a difference my position made to my core strength. And i am also glad you have cracked you problems with your mare. I raised this topic only because even though people say it is banned and it isn't a new topic in a lot of cases it isn't really visible and many people say "it is wrong and cruel" but ride it themselves. Really interesting really, it is a bit like saying you are against meat eaters then eating jelly, you may not realize but you are eating meat but once you have been shown or told you never ever do it again. I think that is what we should try to achieve with hyperflexion.

At 23:33:20 on 14.03.10, Dusty03 wrote:
I can still keep a horse from snatching the reins from my hands. But if I ride a strong horse who likes to pull I get really sore after the ride. My right hip is very weak and I had to work years to strengthen it. I noticed again I am pulling my saddle off to the left in posting trot on my gelding. Though the odd thing is it seems like I put my weight on my right when I ride my mare. I really need to take a lunge line lesson, on a nice lesson horse to get my balance back in order again. It's like pulling teeth to get someone to take pictures let alone get someone to actually hold a lunge line for me. When I was traveling to shows with my Great Aunt and her trainers it was amazing how many of the horses you could tell were schooled in Draw reins. These were Dressage horses in training with top trainers. They held their heads in the tight position no matter what or how their rider rode. This was 12 years ago and those horses were still getting the highest scores at training and 1st level. Over the horses with correct training who didn't hold into the tight over bent frame. I didn't watch many of the upper level classes so I'm not sure what was happening there, it was just sad to see what was placing high at the low levels.

At 11:27:10 on 15.03.10, Flicka wrote:
Are we going a bit over the top about being behind the vertical? It can't be compared to Rollkur. Yes it is good to have the ideal but a horse can go through lots of phases in his training and I don't think we should obsess about where the head is all the time. I like what BlkHrsRdr says. Surely it's just better to get more connected with our mind and feel with what the back end is doing. Also nice to read some positive advice. Then as long as we don't abuse training aids or have bad hands then the head carriage should come. But I don't believe that a horse being behind the vertical at some point of his training is harmful. That is in my mind totally different to a horse having his nose right into his chest. But I'm not a top trainer or rider so just my opinion!