At 23:11:46 on 10.01.10, Em28 wrote:
I thought it would be best to post this thread here in the' Why Women Love Horses Group', as it seems to be the most relevant place. I just wanted to bring it to everyones attention the cruelty that goes on in some parts of the world. Pregnant Mares Urine (|PMU) farms are still in existence in parts of Canada. Please check the link out. Premarin was once a widely prescribed drug for HRT, in 2004 after a report was published highlighting the potential harmful risks of taking these pills, the requirement for Premarin was reduced considerably and many farms closed as a result. However, the pills (now with smaller amounts of oestrogen from pregnant mares are still manufactured by the pharmaceutical company Wyeth Pharmaceuticals (now part of Pzifer). Monitoring of these PMU farms is not very good and the horses exist in terrible conditions for their lives and are then usually slaughtered once they have fulfilled their purpose. The foals are byproducts and often will be fattened up and transported for slaughter. I have put a link to a website that explains this better. Also, there are alternatives listed to Premarin. Should you be on HRT and using Premarin or Prempro products, then there are synthetic alternatives that have been approved and by talking to you doctor you can discuss other options. Although, in the UK it is out of sight out of mind, Premarin is still prescribed in the UK. In 2008 Wyeth's revenue was 22.8 billion, with Premarin being listed as a key product, this was before the merge with Pzifer.

At 07:55:50 on 11.01.10, Em28 wrote:
Just wanted to add, that the issue of Premarin is worldwide, I realise there are a lot of members from across the globe. It is prescribed worldwide and you can buy Premarin products off the internet as well.

At 08:20:17 on 11.01.10, Flicka wrote:
Oh God that is just so disgusting-I really didn't know about this!! Thanks for bringing it to our attention. If all women of a certain age who ride horses made a point of refusing to take this stuff maybe we could make a difference.

At 14:51:38 on 11.01.10, plodalong wrote:
you're not alone Flicka i never heard of this practice either, its awful.thanks em for letting everyone know about this issue.

At 12:17:52 on 12.01.10, wrote:
I can understand how you would be distressed by the pictures and information it that article. But I have to say, you are being misled. I'd like to address some of your concerns, having owned several PMU foals and having actually seen first hand several operations. Now keep in mind, just like any other area of horse life, breeding, showing, etc., you have your good and your bad. I have seen some "top breeders" who should never be allowed near an animal. I have seen show horses that have never seen the light of day except under a saddle. And yes, I have seen some PMU breeders that are despicable. But I have also seen many who's love and dedication to their horses and their breeding program would put most of us to shame. Many are talented and reputable breeders, even without PMU contracts. What is life really like for a PMU mare. Between 6 and 7 months of turnout in lush grass fields, during the most beautiful time of year. When the weather starts to turn, between end of September and November, the mares are brought in from pasture. Any foals who are ready to wean, ie. over 3 months of age, are weaned and sent to loving new homes or held over to be trained and sold as riding horses. Most, not some, most PMU breeders are horse breeders first, and like any good breeder, they have developed a good useful foal. Anything that doesn't sell is kept and trained and sold as a two or three year old. Do some send unwanted foals to auction that may end in slaughter...yes, but not as many as you think!! Contrary to reports, mares are not in standing stalls endlessly. They are given several hours of turnout everyday. It is actually funny to watch, many will step out into the cold and turn around and come right back into the barn. Stalls are typical standing stalls. Just like the ones in a boarding barn, that people like you and me pay good money to have their beloved horse stand in. They are nicely bedded with constant access to hay and water. They can turn and lie down. They are never agitated or upset, they are comfortable and relaxed. The collection equipment is made of soft rubber. It is designed specifically to be comfortable and easy on the horses. Have you ever had a horse who's saddle didn't fit right, or who was uncomfortable in their blanket, I have! They pin ears, swish tails, stomp, paw, grind teeth,shy, buck, kick, roll, thrash and basically let you know in no uncertain terms they are not happy. I have seen one or two PMU mares not happy with collection equipment. But then, they hated the rug they put on so they could go play outside! Most simply don't care. It is not uncomfortable to them and is designed to allow movement. Once the weather turns nice, the mares are put back out on pasture to foal in a spacious, natural environment. Yes, stallions are put out with mares. It is called pasture breeding, and used to be a very common practice. The mare will decide when, and if she breeds again. Unlike most hand breeding operations who either wait for a mare to cycle, or force the issue with drugs and then hold her to breed with the stallion when it is in their best interest. Perfectly acceptable way to breed, though why a natural pasture breeding is vilified is beyond me. Some mares are not re-exposed to a stallion. Many let their mares rest from year to year. If you would like to see one first hand, I can get you in touch with several ranches who would only be too happy to show you around. I think the hormone replacement is a terrible idea, personally. I would never take it, I think it is awful stuff. That being said, I also believe PMU breeders have gotten a terrible reputation that is mot really deserved. A few bad apples and the animal right groups jump on it like dogs on a steak! I have personally seen some of the worst cases of horse abuse, neglect and simple out and out mistreatment at the hands of show barns and regular breeders. I would never say...ban all show rider! If you have any questions, I would be happy to answer them. I realize this is a hot button issue. Just try to keep an open mind and really learn about the industry before condemning it. The photo is of three of my PMU babies living it up!!
http://[IMG]http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z204/cobblerscoveranch/The%20horses/IMG_0258.jpg[/IMG]

At 12:25:05 on 12.01.10, luvmyspots wrote:
Oops! Wrong link, here you go! Someone forgot to tell them they were byproducts!! ;)
http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z204/cobblerscoveranch/The%20horses/IMG_0258.jpg

At 08:08:51 on 13.01.10, Flicka wrote:
Thanks luvmyspots-always good to have a balanced argument. Like you I wouldn't take HRT anyway especially as I've had breast cancer and would rather use more natural remedies to help me through the menopause.

At 08:34:55 on 13.01.10, Angelalain wrote:
When I heard about this three or four years ago it was stated as Russia and Poland as the main producers.Here they raise horses for meat anyhow so I assumed it was part of the same business.I would never take the stuff, and had vowed if the doctor suggested it that I would insist on synthetic, never happened however. Its adifficult one, I'm a believer that nothing should be wasted, but this trade means the production of probably unwanted foals,(Byproducts!!!) and there's far too many of them anyhow. I'm very glad to hear it is probably dying out if the stuff is now not considered'good'. It would be nice to hear an unbiased REAl truth rather than 'truth' from either camp!Can anyone give us the worldwide, correct facts?

At 00:06:17 on 14.01.10, Em28 wrote:
Yes, it is good to have different opinions luvmyspots. I think where we do have common ground is our opinions on the actual product. I think it is important for women to be empowered with the knowledge of where Premarin based products come from so they can then make an informed decision. If I were prescribed HRT from my Doctor I would probably just take it no questions asked, but upon finding out what it was I would be mortally horrified. So it is important people are aware of this subject. With the proven health risks of the product and the process of collecting the urine and byproducts of the foals, it does pose the question of whether it is ethically justified to have PMU farms. I do agree that horse neglect and abuse goes on across the globe and perhaps I was a little rash in stating the conditions are terrible across the board on PMU farms. I am sure the PMU farmers do have an interest in horses to be in the business. I do however think that the industry does raise questions about animal welfare, simply due to the fact that the business is to collect the urine and what this imposes on the horses and their wellbeing. It's good to see the picture of your PMU babies living it up! I would hate to think what would have been their fate without you.

At 00:08:29 on 14.01.10, Em28 wrote:
Oh by HRT I mean premarin based HRT not all HRT is premarin based.