At 19:14:43 on 06.01.10, farasi wrote:
What makes starting your horse off the natural so much better than the tradtional ways? Will my horse if it is started off naturally (which could someone please let me know exactly what the natural way is) be better than the other way? Will I be able to get better flat work from my horse, will it be able to engaged behind quicker and have more elevation, and will my training schedule be shorter or longer? I really would like to know what the benefits are and where the rewards will be. What are the benefits of bitless and treeless? This is something that seems to crop up time and time again "the natural way" but what exactly is it and how does it differ, I am interested in straight easy to understand answers with the pros and cons, as it's something I hear about but nobody really lays down hard cold facts and comparisions. I am open minded and willing to listen and learn new things. Horsemanship is an art and is a bond with your horse of mutal respect and trust, the ability to read its body language and use your own to help calm, reinforce and persuade all this I already have from my horses, but I gather it is not the natural way. so please can you guys help enlighten me.

At 11:32:09 on 07.01.10, Dazzle wrote:
I'd like to add my pennyworth please. I have had two horses both started the Monty Roberts way. The first by Monty Roberts himself in a demonstration. The second Hector, was done by a previous owner who had several Monty Roberts qualifications. Both horses were hot and spooky. In fact, the previous owner of Hector gave up and sent him away to a training yard to finish backing. My question is, are there horses that do not respond to this type of training?

At 12:43:29 on 07.01.10, plodalong wrote:
hello,i can only speak for myself as to how and why i use natural horsemanship methods. as you know i never learned any other way, i didnt know what to do with Bo when i felt he was out to kill me. I went the parelli route because the advice i was getting from people didnt work for us.I am happy to admit that mabey i chose the wrong people to ask for advice.When bo continualy turned his back on me in the stable i was advised to take a whip in and hit him until he learned to face me.Im ashamed to say i tried it and Bo did face me, only he had his ears back and his teeth barred again when we hacked out and spooked so much that i fell off a lot. i was told dont get off stay on him or he will have won.when he was getting his tongue over his bit then the advice was,tie his mouth shut with a flash, when i was unable to ride him, lunging was the answer,I didnt like any off these practices but didnt know what else to do but follow the herd and do what everyone else was doing. i got to watch a parelli dvd and when pat said"watch what everyone else does and do the opposite" thats when i knew the way to go. Pat and Monty teach people to think like a horse to have a good understanding of how horses think,act and feel. and why they behave as they do the answer was simple they are horses and behave as nature intended them to behave.i have met people who really believe that their horse stays awake all night thinking of ways to piss them off.dont get off or he will think he's won.won what? I know someone who sold her horse because it reared all the time, guess what her new horse has begun to do ,now she is up for sale.some people use traditional methods some go to natural horsemanship but usually when like me they dont know the answer or method of fixing problems they have with their horse.Bo is now bitless for the simple reason that when i begun to ride him in a natural rope hackamore which was to assist my riding skills i noticed that the head shaking and fussing in the mouth and the leaning had stopped and Bo appeared happier.As most insurance companies wont cover horses ridden in halters but will with a bitless bridle i got a dr cooks.I cant tell you how the starting methods are different as i have no experience with starting. and to answer Dazzle's question Pat Parelli says that his programme works for every horse, any size any age any breed.I have seen him working with a couple of little shetlands and with large belgan draft horses.Monty also travells the world working with all types of horse. if im not mistaken the houshold cavalry horses are started the monty roberts way, Monty became an author because our Queen was so impressed with the way he worked that she insisted he write a book.but please remember its not a horse training programme its a people training programme. there are lots of parelli horsless clinics taking place, i did attend one before i took Bo to one.It would be my wish that every new horseowner first got an insight as to how to understand their horse by attending a horseless clinic or reading a book that explains that horses dont need to be hit,kicked,or treated in ways that dont let them keep their majestic dignity and spirit. farasi your horses are lucky to have you, the normal methods work for you but there are lots of people who seek a different way.how many times have you seen a terrified horse being forced into a trailer,how many times have you seen the spoilt child whack her pony because she didnt get a rosette.how many times have you seen a professional horseperson beat a horse because it refused a jump? Violence isnt the way.And before you even think it i am certain that you dont treat your horses with with any amount of violence,But the world is'nt full of Farasi's Dazzles or Plodalong's nor is it full of cruel people but ther are a lot of horseowners that could do with a bit of education on horsemanship that teaches the language of equus.

At 13:25:18 on 07.01.10, farasi wrote:
I think you are spot on plodalong, there is so much wrong advice out their that people follow, I always listen to my horses, I can read their ears, eyes and posture, I think a bond like that with your horse is the only way it should be. What I have noticed over my many years with horses, that fear and lack of knowledge is the main contributing factor, and I think a lot of people who use the term natural horsemanship, use it as they have only ever seen misuse of conventional methods, and quick fix options, and fear in the ability to handle their horse, so that is classed as the tradtional method, however in my eyes the tradtional method is not that, it is confidence in your own ability, the ability to work with your horse and not against it, and the ability to seek other solutions that most suit you and your horse, your training is based on respect, trust and understanding, and asking questions, and working on the answers together until you acheive your desired results. I watch other horse folks at shows trying to load their horse, lunge ropes, whips, shouting, screming, bridles and all sorts, I throw the rope over my horses neck and tell them "in you go", and then fasten the bum bar, I drop the trailer ramp undo the bum bar touch their bum and ask them "back you come" as they are coming out, I use "go back" and when they get near the baclk of the ramp I tell them "step" so they know they are at the end of the ramp. This to me is only communication, how do you expect a flight animal to back out of a confinded space in to the unknown without the assistance from you, it's consideration, common sense, and respect. Every horse that passes through my hands, is a tip top loader and self unloader with in a matter of days, without, a stick, bridle, shouting or abuse thrown at them. Loading is a prime example of bad horsemanship time and time again, don't pull your horse in to the trailer by it's head, common sense tells you the head will go up, it may smack it head on the roof, you are looking directly at the horse so this is an agressive gesture, walk at it shoulder speaking to it with confidence and softly, waiting if it wants to look. I do have the benefit that I already have a horse in their waiting for them to join, so it makes things a little easier. Bad riding and lack of ability is usually the cause of gadgets and nosebands, although yes I do use a noseband on both my horses, but I can tell you exactly why I use the noseband I do, and they are not tight, just a little friendly reminder to them. You can take a lot of horses that are ridden in all sorts of crap (not all some are too messed up) and find the reason behind what they do, and can sort with time and paitence a lot of the problems they have, without gadgets and harsh bits. On the other hand you have my brother inlaw who is a twat and should not have horses, it is a tool, and a fantastic little horse that does everything it is asked without ressistance, but he treats it like a tool, pulls it round, spends no time with it, and yet he has a fan club as he is a farrier, and he is great with horse, he's not he's an oversized knob on legs! And this so called fan club, will learn by his lack of respect and the cycle of shit horsemanship that is considered the tradtional way continues! Sorry I have ranted a bit!

At 13:42:01 on 07.01.10, bmc06239 wrote:
Dazzle: my thoughts with Monty Roberts is that his system uses the natural response of flight to tire the horse into submission. I think people fail because this can only be done once or twice, and only for a horse that is difficult for one reason or another to approach. Once you succeed in "joining up" all training should be to build trust so that the horse looks to the rider for protection rather than flight. I try in my training to eliminate the flight response...but most of mine are trail horses...that might not work if they where racing horses. Plodalong: My thought with Parrelli is that he does not stress enough that it is the release of pressure that teaches the horse. So people fail because their timing of release is too late.

At 13:42:37 on 07.01.10, plodalong wrote:
lol.way to go girl, i only hope your relative doesnt post on trot on.I think horsemanship education is the answer but for someone to learn a different approach they have to first admit that they dont know what they are doing and only the brave will do that.As i know that going against the grain can cause a lot of heartache and soulsearching I, like you just point to the trailer and throw the rope over his back and in he goes.the difference between this method and shoving them in with longlines round them is that we have taught out horses that there is nothing to fear ,to trust in our decicion to ask them to go inside and the most important thing is that our horses think its their idea to go in and dont feel threatened by our behaviour. Both normal and natural horsemanship methods work and depend on the person using them.Its a very individual choice, all the natural stuff is what good horsemen have been doing for years and i thank god for. those who share the knowledge with us through any means they can.

At 14:09:42 on 07.01.10, plodalong wrote:
hi bmc, nice to hear from you but i have to disagree.Parelli always stresses that its not what you do but when you stop doing what you are doing and then allowing the horse dwell time that works well.Monties join up is what naturally happens within the herd, a wayward youngster will be sent outside the herd until he shows the lead mare some respect by using the exact same body language that horses display in join up. ear on. head bobbing, the direction of the flight is changed as whoever can move the other around and change direction is the leader and then approppriate respect is shown,the sorry youngster will then be invited back into the herd and behave himself.and follow the leadmare.its not a safe place for a flight animal to be outside the herd and alone.and as you say all the respect gained on the ground will then become apparant under saddle.I still think that if people arn't even aware that they are riding a flight animal and think that horses are silly for spooking or running really need to know these things before they fork a leg over a horses back, hitting the horse will only proove him right to be worried.teach your horse that if he stands still then the danger will go away, this in my opinion is the way to teach the horse that he doesnt need to run you will then be giving him another option.approach and retreat, pressure and release its how horses communicate with each other.Play is important to horses, us reading his body language and energy levels and him reading ours is what natural horsemanship is all about. so you see, that Monty doesnt send the horse away to tire him out, every horse has a natural flight distance and very often wont show any respect until he has run the distance. watch someone lunging a horse the poor horse gives all the right signals for join up, he shows remorse and respect but the longer isnt listening then the horse will shut his brain down because all his instincts have told him what to do but not how to be listened to, his body will be working hard but his mind will be shutdown, people need to be taught to look and listen.

At 14:37:24 on 07.01.10, bmc06239 wrote:
I saw Pat perform in 2002 and he did not stress 'that its not what you do but when you stop doing what you are doing and then allowing the horse dwell time that works well" We watched him work a horse the day before the big show and he was really losing his patients...he asked us to leave...the next day he worked the same horse for the crowd claiming it was the first time he had seen or worked with that horse. I have not followed his work since. I enjoyed reading Monty's book. My thoughts about Monty come from something I read by Andrew McLean. I think you and I agree whole heartedly about reading the horse's body language...most people miss the subtle hints. I think the horse should know that we are human and not part of his family unit...the last thing I want is for the horse to try to establish a pecking order with my little grandson. My point is that I think people take the tools (the carrot stick, the round pen...etc.) and they forget that the control comes from your chi.

At 15:44:08 on 07.01.10, farasi wrote:
I love your angle bmc, and I have to agree with you on the join up aspect, and this is all you hear about how wonderful it is and how it acheives great things, will it make your horse a better horse if you use these methods, that is what I am asking, and the reason why will these methods if used make your horse better? I am possibly synical as I feel a lot of what these natural horse people do is marketing, while I think it is a great way to help the new arrival to horses understand then better, I feel it only takes them to a certain point and that is it, say I wish to teach my horse to ride a better medium trot, how will Monty or Parelli help me acheive it? How will they help my rein back, how will it help me win the next competition I enter? My horses have clear defined boundries and merely a growl will stop them overstepping them, so I am leader, I love your point about your grandson and pecking order, you are right this can not happen! It's like having dogs, I am pack leader without a showdow of a doubt and the dogs too do not over step the bondries clearly laid out, I am sure children to a degree need boundries and consistancy too. As for my brother inlaw, he won't post on here, no idea how to use a computer and too far up his own ass to come on a site like this he needs o help as he knows it all (but clearly knows nothing), he sat on one of my horses once, and will never get near them again, he's lucky the old horse responds to my voice when I am sat on somthing else! Treat my horse like a tool and abuse it no chance.

At 23:20:40 on 07.01.10, plodalong wrote:
hi, without the marketing lots of people would never have heard of natural horsemen or other methods of working with horses, monty doesnt make horses better he shows people an alternative and violentless way for people to handle and ride horses therefor staying safe and enjoying these creatures we love so much.When i watched Pat and Linda parelli at the celebration Iwas entertained i was learning and i loved every second of it. Yes Pat is a showman and Yes they make a lot of money but the programme is well packaged and easy to follow. the NEC in Birmingham was packed out Iwas talking to some girls who had come from Holland to watch the Parelli team and thier horses. I agree farasi that parelli cant help with your dressage test but he has helped lots of people to obtain ground skills and given them the knowledge to fix problems or obtain a relationship with the horse .its funny that traditionalists turn to monty or parelli when they are having major problems. Linda herself admitted that a cowboy was the last person she wanted to ask for help,but she didnt know where to go and had every bit of available tack and still couldnt stop her horse at x.Iam a big Parelli fan and think monty Roberts has achieved his life goal of leaving this world a better place for horses and people.he is a great man and well respected by me and countless others that he has helped.